How do you spot – and develop – a good leader? It’s not just about the ability to do the work—they have to be teachable, too. John Maxwell returns to the podcast to discuss his book, The Leader’s Greatest Return, which is all about investing in leaders and teaching them to become even better leaders. Discover why John wants leaders to work themselves out of a job, how to know when to pull the plug on a person, and why letting go is the key to growth.
Book: The Leader’s Greatest Return
Bio: John C. Maxwell is a #1 New York Times bestselling author, coach, and speaker who has sold more than 31 million books in fifty languages. He has been identified as the #1 leader in business by the American Management Association® and the most influential leadership expert in the world by Business Insider and Inc. magazine. He is the founder of The John Maxwell Company, The John Maxwell Team, EQUIP, and the John Maxwell Leadership Foundation, organizations that have trained millions of leaders from every country of the world. A recipient of the Horatio Alger Award, as well as the Mother Teresa Prize for Global Peace and Leadership from the Luminary Leadership Network, Dr. Maxwell speaks each year to Fortune 500 companies, presidents of nations, and many of the world’s top business leaders. He can be followed at Twitter.com/JohnCMaxwell. For more information about him visit JohnMaxwell.com.
This transcript is unedited.
Peter: With us today is John Maxwell. We are lucky. He is back on the show. John’s the number one New York times bestselling author, coach and speaker. He has sold more than wait for it. 31 million books in 50 languages. So chances are you’ve read at least one of his books. If you’re listening to this, if you haven’t, you absolutely should. And probably the book that you should read is his latest book, which I thought was terrific. The leader’s greatest return, attracting, developing, and multiplying leaders. And this is a subject that the John takes a deep dive into. We have talked to them a little bit about this beforehand. It’s important enough to go deeper into and critical. I was just coaching a senior leader in an organization who said, my biggest issue is I’ve got to develop the leadership of my team so that they are leaders and they are developing leaders also. So I said, wow, what an amazing thing to ask me about. I’m talking to John later today and I’m going to ask him some of the questions you’re asking me. So John, it’s so delightful to have you on the Bregman leadership podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.
John: Great to be with you, Peter. Great to be with your listeners too. We’re going to have a good time. Yeah.
Peter: So give us the, you know, so your, your books, you know, you’ve, you’ve, I don’t even know how many books you’ve written, but 31 million, you’ve sold 31 million of them. So you know, assuming you sell a million of each book, that’s at least 31 bucks. But I think you’re up at the 50 level.
John: People ask me all the time and you know, a bunch of books. So my question is, you know, after all of the wealth of knowledge that you’ve shared, why this one, why now are very excited about the leader’s greatest return. Because when I was a young leader, I never had anybody come to me and say, invest in the people around you. I didn’t know too. And so therefore I just did my best to kind of build whatever I was building and, and help people. But when I turned 40 Peter which is just a couple of years ago, right? Yeah, it was just 32 years ago when I turned 40, I began to evaluate my kind of my first half and I realized I was a little disappointed. I realized that I had not achieved all the things I wanted to achieve.
John: And so I began to kind of go, why go deep dive into that and I to the conclusion that I had not really spent the time invest the time and the people around me, my team, like I needed to, I’d done a good job developing myself and investing in me. And I had teams, but I pretty much kind of just gave them jobs and expect them to do the jobs. And I hadn’t really taken them, mentored them, develop them, and empower them like I needed to to be great leaders. And so I made a commitment at 40 that I was going to change that, that I was going to make that my number one priority, investing in my key players out of that. In fact, out of that time came one of the laws of the 20 winter refutable laws of leadership, the law of the inner circle, which basically say that, you know, those who are closest to you to determine the level of your success.
John: And so for 32 years I’ve done that. Now the book, because what’s happened is I have been at this leadership development game long enough to see the unbelievable, incredible return you have when you invest in your people and mentor them and empower them and give them a chance to practice leadership. But, so this is what the book is all about because there are many people that are watching and listening and, and, and I want to encourage them to, I, I’m given a picture 1510, 15 years down the road, I wanna I want to just say, Hey, do this now and, and watch the return that you received out the road.
Peter: Now you’re, you’re a little unusual because, or maybe not. Maybe I’m unusual, but I, I look at a lot of thought leaders of which you’re one, right? You’ve, you’ve really delved into this, you teach you, you develop new methodologies and I find that a lot of thought leaders, and I would put myself in this category also tend to love ideas and love to share them and develop them and think about them and speak about them and write about them and coach about them. But in terms of actual management of people, oftentimes like we don’t really love it and I’ll, and I’ll sort of speak for myself, like I don’t really love it. Like I don’t think I’m the best manager of people. I think I can help people manage people really well, but I’m not the best manager of people that I would sort of rather, you know, delve deep into something, writes on the etc. And, or does this come naturally to you, John? Is this something that you sort of look at and you go, well, I really want to develop people. It turns out that I love it. Do you like hate it but force yourself to do it? Like I’m sort of curious about your experience of it.
John: Well, my experience is that I know that my success with the people that I develop and work with is going to determine my success. And, and, and so that is my I, I know I love people so I enjoy working with them, but I especially enjoy working with leaders because the return is so much higher. And so what I early on learned was that I had to prioritize. I had to prioritize the people I spend time with. I have a chapter in the leader’s greatest return on invite them to sit at the leadership table. And it is, it’s a whole chapter about bringing people into leadership discussions and interactions in questions so that you can find the ones who kind of lean in and have a maybe a leadership propensity versus those who don’t. And, and, and I love to have those kind of discussions.
John: And then when I find somebody that has really a kind of a leaning toward leadership to be able to take that person and equip them and it helped them to experience some wins under their belt because somebody can tell you that you’re really good, but what you’re going to discover very quickly is that affirmation without action. And some wins under your belt, it is very shallow and very hollow. And so what I tell people all the time is just very simply look, I’m going to help you get some wins under your belt. And that’ll give you confidence in self comments for you to move on and do really well in your life. And to see them succeed is really my reward. I’m 72. If people say, would you like to go back 10, 20 years? Now? I like where I am now because I’m getting to see people, I’m getting to see the fruit of my labor and the most of my readers don’t have that perspective yet. So this is a book to say, okay, hang in there, stay on this road of developing leaders and let me give you a picture of what it’s going to look like down the road.
Peter: So I’d love to get dirty, you know, kind of in, in the down and dirty of it. And, and one of the challenges that, that I find in developing leaders in that, that I hear from leaders that I’m coaching and working with is I could coach people, but in the end, I don’t really, I’m not in the room with them. There are, you know, seven out of 10 people, eight out of 10 people I know they’re doing really well. I could see the results, et cetera, you know, two out at a 10. I don’t, I, I get mixed feedback. I’m not in the room with them. I hear one thing from them. I hear something else from other people. And, and, and how do I get enough information to really develop them in a way that’s gonna gonna to help them when they’re leaders on their own? I’m not, I’m not holding their hand for it.
John: Well, I sometimes you don’t. First of all, it’s not a world where you can get all the feedback and the information and the, the visualists. I mean, there’s power in proximity, but sometimes you don’t get proximity. And so I think it will, what it is is it’s an odds game, nods game. If you put the right stuff in the right people, the odds are not all of them, but many of them will really improve and get better. And so therefore, a long time ago I realized I didn’t have the of doing one on one with a lot of people. In fact, I have a wonderful friend, Andy Stanley, whose expression is do for one what you wish you could do for many. And so I think once you began to understand these leadership development principles pour into one or two or a few that you do have that proximity with.
John: For me, for example, smart coal and, and Mark owns and oversees the, the John Maxwell enterprise basically get, and to be able to be close to him and watch him develop is just nothing but pure joy for me. But most of the people I don’t get to see their action or I don’t get to be close enough to see the fruit of it. But when I travel or when I meet them, they’ll come up to me and they’ll say, look, let me tell you something. It was this book that really equipped me. It was this book that, that really kinda got me started off in the right direction. So I don’t see them all, but I do know this. It’s an odds game. You, you, you do the right thing for the right people. And not all the time, but most of the time they’ll turn it out. Right.
Peter: Let’s take a step back and just define leader because I’m realizing we’re having this conversation about leaders and I want to ask a few more questions, but we should make sure that we’re on the same page about how do you define leader
John: Leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. That’s been my classic definition of leadership for 45 years and it just really works. It’s very simple and so therefore a lot of people, they want to tweak it. But let me just put it this way. In any given time, any given group for any given room at any given reason, the person who has the most influence in that group is the leader of the pack. They may have the title, they may not have the time, doesn’t matter. Leadership is influence.
Peter: So there’s a, I’m trying to, thinking of an example of a CEO of an organization who has influence and he drives what happens in this organization and he is feared and people don’t really share the truth with him because he is unpredictable. The turnover’s pretty high. People find it a little untenable to work with him for long periods of time. And yet, you know, by the definition of leader, he really fits that definition.
John: Oh, it does. And you know, F and I, another statement of may cause everything rises and falls on leadership. So in the scenario that you just gave me, Peter the good news is he has the influence. The bad news is it’s probably to the detriment of the people not to, they’re not not to an asset. So you know, the best thing that can happen to a group of people as a good leader and the worst thing could happen to a group of people is a bad leader.
Peter: Right? Right. So they’re leaders because they have influence and whether they’re productive or unproductive, depends on how they wield that influence in the way in which the character with which bring to that influence.
John: Yes. So I’m just defining leadership. If you said, would you define good leadership? That I would say that’s to influence people in a positive way. Would you define bad leadership? Well, that’s the influence people in a negative way. But leadership still is influence.
Peter: And how do you identify whether you’ve, someone has, even if they’re not showing it yet, the potential or the capability to be a great leader?
John: Well, I think three things that I look for. Number one is do they have the ability to produce themselves? In other words, whenever you give them an assignment or a job, do they bring it home? Do they produce results to the added ability to, to get it done and to get it done? Well, that’s one. Number two is do they have the ability to get others to do it? The reason one is essential is if I can’t do it for myself, the odds are very high. I can’t do it for you either. And, and so it starts with, I can do it for myself. Now can, can John help Peter accomplish that and do that? And, and if, okay, I got a yes on the first one. I got a yes on the second one. And the third question is how teachable are you?
John: Because even though you have the ability to do it yourself or get others to do it, if you don’t have teachability and you don’t have growth potential because all growth comes from the willingness to listen and learn and apply and improve yourself. And how do you assess teachability why assess teachability by the fact that when I’m with a person, they not only listen and, and you know, take their notes, et cetera, but then they go and they apply it and you know, and it’s, it’s kind of like one of the fellows I was mentoring after my first mentoring session, about a month later, you want to have a second one. And so when he called me up, he said, John, okay, last time we were together, this is what you taught me. This is what I’ve learned. This is what how I applied, what I learned. Did I do a good job with it? Can I now talk to you again? And the answer’s yes. Yes. Yeah. She asked because you showed the, you showed that you were learning, you were listening, that you are applying. And, and how did I do and, and, and can we do it again? That’s all. That’s all part of teachability is the willingness and the desire to want to learn.
Peter: What are some signs you have? How quickly can you tell? You know, what this person just doesn’t have it. Meaning it’s, I find that’s a decision that leaders often are slow on, which is to say to pull the plug on somebody and say, you know what, I’m, I’m going to move on. I’m going to let someone go. It’s a very, very hard decision. It’s an emotionally Laden decision, but oftentimes by the time they make the decision that someone’s not going to be able to, to show up as a leader and that it’s, it’s the day there’s already been so much done. Like it’s such an obvious decision because they’ve waited so long. How could people get a jumpstart on that?
John: Yeah, I remember my, I didn’t say this, it’s not original to me, but somebody said that, you know, hire slow, fire fast and the whole process. Well what, but I do have a, a kind of a, a way to, for a person to really figure this out. So let’s say for example, Peter, you’re on the team and you’ve been with me for six months, maybe a year or now I’m still looking at you and I’m thinking, nah, you know, I, I’m not sure. I’m just not sure. So I, I encourage leaders to ask themselves this question. The question is very simple. If I knew what I know about you right now, today, and I had a chance to hire you, in other words, you, you weren’t working with me, but you just, I, but, but you asked for a job knowing what I know now about you after we’ve worked together for maybe a year, would I hire you? And if the answer is yes, that that shows me that probably I feel that you’re inclined to make it. If the answer is no, obviously you’re inclined not to make it. And if the answer is I don’t know, I wait three months and if it’s still, I don’t know, I let you go because I’m just not dealing with reality.
Peter: Right. It reminds me of a, an investment that I didn’t know if I should stay in or not. And, and a friend of mine and investors asked me the same question. If you had that amount of money right now, would you invest it in the stock? If the answer is no, then you don’t, then you pull out because it’s not the right investment. Yeah. You said something that piqued my interest a minute ago, which is that, you know, of the three ways three things that a leader should be doing, first of all, or how you know that you’ve got a great leader is the first thing is, you know, are they able to execute and do it? The second thing is they able to help others to execute. Because if they’re not able to do it themselves, they probably won’t be very effective at helping others execute.
Peter: And what I wonder about that because I think of coaches, I think of, you know you know, on basically coaches and basketball who they would never, the coach could never execute the way a great basketball player could execute, but they could absolutely help the person you know, perform at excellence. And I wonder if the same thing isn’t true of leaders, which is, you know, someone may not be themselves a great leader, but they might be really great at creating and building leaders, which ultimately as the greatest return, right? Which is multiplying leaders. So I might be great at multiplying leaders though I may not be a great leader myself. Do you see that or is that just a hypothetical?
John: No, well, it’s, it’s legitimate, but most, your example, most of the coaches probably don’t have the ability to perform to the level of the players this time. But there is an assumption at one time they did have the ability to perform as a player. Now there are exceptions where a coach never may be quote played the game. But that’s very rare. That’s very rare. You know, we teach what we know but we re reproduce who are at. And so many times I think we miss that part. And so what I’ve said before is that what, what gives a person credibility to lead in the first place is they’ve succeeded themselves. I mean, think about it Peter, if, if you’re going to get on a team, if you’re, you’re not going to, you’re not gonna want to be on a team of somebody that hasn’t produced himself, you, you, you want them to, you want to know that they’ve been successful because they’ve been successful.
John: The odds are they can probably help you be successful. But if you know, if they haven’t been, I mean who’s to say they can help you. So I think as a principal there are always exceptions, but as a principal I really want to see somebody who has been successful themselves. And if that’s the case now can they help other people successful? Now I know a lot of people who have been personally successful, but they don’t have the ability or the desire to transfer it to anyone else and they truly do become a self, make type person. So I know that but, but, but that, that’s why I asked the second question, can, can that person help other people produce? The third question obviously is, are they teachable? Because all of mentoring has the foundation of the person that you’re mentoring really being receptive to personal change and growth,
Peter: Right? Let’s do a deep dive in, in the later part of the book where you’re really talking about team, team up leaders so that they can multiply their impact and also, you know, help leaders create other leaders, right? That feels so critical and I want to do a little bit of a deep live like what are some techniques? What are some tips? What are some things you can share with our listeners to help them support and create leaders who create leaders?
John: It’s a great question and I’m glad you ask it because honestly, I think this is the big miss with most leaders. Most leaders, first of all, Peter, they really don’t develop other leaders. They just have followers. Okay. Right? So, so let’s just start there. And the reason is having followers is easy. Developing leaders is hard. And so,
Peter: Well also I think there’s, there’s Putin, you know, there’s like an ego component to it, which is if I’m developing leaders, it’s like a threat to my own leadership or I’m giving up, you know, I’m giving, I’m really giving up control or I’m like making myself much less necessary. And I think for people who don’t have sufficient ego strength or aren’t confident enough in themselves, you know, that that feels really risky.
John: Well, it is risky for them. And in fact insecure leaders never empower other people. So, you know, honestly, if you’re an insecure leader, if it’s a power issue, if it’s an ego issue if it’s a security issue, honestly you’re not going to develop other leaders who develop leaders. That becomes a threat to you. So I’m going to make an assumption and the assumption I’m gonna make is that you really would like to have other leaders at, because see where an insecure leader, their whole desire is to be indispensable. What they want to hear more than anything else Peter, is people say, Oh my gosh, I can’t do it without you. We couldn’t do without you. Why? What will we do if you weren’t here? They love that stuff. Right? What? Where is great leaders, they, they want to be dispensable, right? They realize that their job is to build up, equip and train and develop people until really they can leave.
Peter: Yeah. It’s, it’s actually interesting the, the, the top leaders, the best leaders. I know the people I’ve coached who have really, you know, who I know intimately, who have been most successful are the ones who have actually very balanced lives. And the reason they have balanced lives is because they’re not running around trying to do everything because they’ve got really good teams and so have no desire to do it. And they’re very good at distinguishing signal from noise. And one of the signals is, do I have really great people around me who are executing and building leaders themselves?
John: Yeah. There’s a statement that says it’s wonderful when the people believe in the leader, but it’s even more wonderful when the leader believes in the people. Yeah, and so what we’re talking about here is a, is a secure leader. So now let’s go to your back to your game plan question. If, if I want to develop a leaders that develop leaders, how do I do that? Now, there are several things I talk about in the book, but let me give you a couple of them quickly. First of all, when I bring people into executive positions, one of the first things I would say to them is, I want you to do this job really well. But what I really want you to do while you’re doing it very well is I want you to raise up a leader to do it. In fact, what I want you to do is work yourself out of a job.
John: So you set that as an expectation early on, right on the front, right? This is what the game is. Yeah. Now you’ve got to do the job well yourself first. So, so let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s have excellence in the, in the job and what it requires. Because if you’re going to go find somebody that to take over and, and train them and develop them, they’ve got to have a good model of excellence. So do your job well, but while you’re doing your job well, constantly be saying, and who am I going to train to take? The job effect of? My statement was, I’m hiring you to work yourself out of this job. And the good news is if you work yourself out of this job, I’ll give you another term. Exactly. But if you don’t work yourself out of this job, I’m not sure I’m going to give you another job. In fact, I may take the job you have away from you. Now that is setting an expectation, a leadership culture where you can honestly say leaders are made here. Well, it’s because you’re encouraging them to go and find somebody and train them and develop them and created what I call a practicing leadership and environment.
Peter: Well, here’s what I like about it also John, is that it becomes its own lens or its own filter for making sure you’ve got people with sufficient ego strength, right? Because if they’re willing to work themselves out of their job because they know they’re confident enough, they could take the other one on, then you’re, then you’re off to the races. But if they’re not and they’re worried about working themselves out of a job and that their wire that they want to have a job after that, then they’re probably not confident enough to build the kind of leaders around them that you’re really expecting.
John: You got it. Exactly your sentence. So upfront, when I mentor or develop somebody, I want to know who they’re going to mentor and develop. So it’s, it’s not like I’m equipping you just to equip you. I’m equipping you to go equip somebody else. So you know, the, the test of a successful equipping leader is that when he or she is done equipping someone, they’re already equipping someone else.
Peter: So here’s a question, which is, what about someone like you? So for example, I’m thinking about, I’m thinking about founders and firms and I’m thinking about people who really are to a certain extent, irreplaceable. So there are things for which you are replaceable, but there are things because of your, because you’re the talent is, there are ways in which you are irreplaceable, right? Like there’s a reason your name is on this book. And, and so what I’m curious about is does that work in organizations where there’s talent and it could be, you know, like an actor, it could be a, you know, the, the, the person who is in the limelight in a sense, does this same thing work or there’s slightly different rules that apply?
John: No, that’s a good question at, you know, I would say that it, my role with my organizations is more than anything else is I’m a Rainmaker and, and and, and you just can’t always develop rainmakers, right? You can’t always reproduce rainmakers. That’s what you’re really talking about. But 90% of everything that I am that helps the companies and makes me unique is reproducible, not 100% and so what the mistake people make a lot of times is they see that 10% that’s not reproducible and they say, well, it’s no sense of you tried to develop anybody anyway because literally they can’t replace my speaking ability or they can’t. You know, they, they, they don’t, they don’t ha they don’t have my incredible creativity or whatever. And what I tell people this, first of all, you’re going to die. So let’s just, let’s just set, you’re not going to be hanging around forever.
John: The challenge with people like myself is we hang on too long. If the team is going to win the relay race, you don’t have the have the Baton off to the next member when you’re all fatigued and you’re kind of just about to drop out of the race, now you have to hand it off at top speed. Most people in my positions as leaders, they hold onto their position too long. And so I tell them all the time, is hand the Baton off when you’re still going strong. It gives the team the best chance to win and Hey, who says that in that 10% Rainmaker, whatever, this hang around and keep making rain for them, but 90% can be passed off to other people. It can be true. They can be trained, they can be developed. And the more that they are growing around me, the more influence they get, which allows them to have a much better shot of being successful.
Peter: Right. When you have a leader who is like really sincerely wants to develop leaders, like really sincerely wants to develop leaders around them and has very high standards of how things should be done and maybe even very particular standards. So there’s like an an almost like an unconscious control over how things go. So this goes to some of what you write about in terms of empowering leaders. Yes. That it, it’s it’s not from a bad place. It’s not from a, I need to be, you know, I, I need to I’m afraid you’re going to replace me place, but it’s a, I care so much about the standard of what we do that unless you can really, really meet the standard, I don’t really want to give you anything, which obviously makes it hard for that person to develop.
John: Yeah. What happens is that kind of spirit and attitude is, is a, is a major loss. I know people who say, well, I’m not going to hand it off to someone else until they can do it better than I can do it. And I just basically say that’s not the purpose of handing it off. How do you develop leaders? Let them practice leadership. You weren’t that good in the beginning and I wasn’t that good at the beginning. We had to practice, it’s much better off in a leadership culture to hand it had that Baton off and to have a culture that is conducive for that person to learn from their mistakes and grow than it is to have a high standard. You see what people have a high standard like that say well I’m not sure they could do it as well as I could do it. I say that isn’t the purpose of handing it off. You see it’s still a control issue. You can’t have heavy control and have great growth at the same time. And
Peter: Say that again cause that’s, I think it’s really important. Yeah. Yeah.
John: You can’t have heavy control. In other words, I can’t basically try to fit everybody in that my mode determined that they have to be able to do it. Like I do it and do it the same way I do it or else they’re not going to get that assignment or because what happens is growth is dependent upon action and action is dependent upon the freedom to act. And a leadership culture basically says part of growing as a leader is making mistakes and having misses and it’s okay. So you’re going to have some misses and and work on what we’re here is we’re here to correct them quickly and get you back on the track. But, but we’re not expecting you to be perfect, but we are expecting you to give it a good shot [inaudible] and we’re going to mentor you and help you, but you have to give people permission to lead and giving them permission to lead.
John: There’s the winds and there are the losses and then it’s okay. Get shake the dust off philosophies and get right back back into the game. What happens is if you help a person go through the misses and the losses and you say, okay, here, let’s look at this. What went wrong? How could we have done this better? What would you change now at okay, and the moment that they get to learn from that loss, then get them back out there again because they’re in profitability. They’re not going to repeat it again because they learned from it. Right.
Peter: John, this has been incredibly interesting and helpful. Any, any last thoughts that you have or anything else that you want to share with us before we close?
John: Yeah. Peter, I have one last thought and that is the fact that when I wrote this book, the leader’s greatest return, this book was written for men and women who want to have a long life of successfully leading people. In my early career I was very disappointed by a young leader that I poured my life into, mentored them, and they just went South and, and I had such high expectations and end up having to fire them. And I can remember for six months I got really gun shy and I just said, I’m not going to develop any more leaders. I’m going to do it myself. I, I mean, after all, I’m not going to mess myself up. And in that six month period of time, it was a great struggle for me. And what I learned on the other side of that was the good news is, is if you, if you don’t empower, develop other leaders and give them the, the, the privilege of going out and trying, the good news is, is, is they won’t hurt you.
John: But the bad news is they can’t help you. And I determine that as a young leader that there would be a few times in my life I would be hurt by empowering people, but I would be helped so much more than hurt that it, you know, it’s worth a couple shots that I’ve had happened. It’s been very true. I’ve been hurt a few times, but I’ve been helped a lot of times. And this is kind of an empowering book for leaders to read that basically says, come on, I’m John Maxwell’s giving you the green light. Go out, do your best to train, equip, mentor young leaders, let them practice the leadership, bless them, and watch the huge return that you’ll get in the long run for it.
Peter: You know, I, I’ve made a couple of analogies to investing I guess I’ve been thinking about investing, but I, but it’s the same thing, which is that if you’re really afraid of losing money on any stock, you’re never gonna invest in any stock and your money will stay in cash and, and you’re not going to grow. And it’s kind of the same thing. It’s like with, with people were more hesitant to take some of those risks sometimes, but I think that’s also where when I’m listening to you, you’ve got to make the decisions when it’s not working to act fast enough that you don’t become gun shy about bringing anybody else in
John: You. Hey, I help every one of those who watch the program or listen to it. Catch what you just caught.
Peter: John, thank you so much. We’re with John Maxwell, the legend. His book is the leader’s greatest return, attracting, developing, and multiplying leaders. John, as always, it is such a pleasure talking with you and I’m so glad that you could make it onto the Bregman leadership podcast. Thank you so much for being with us.
John: So it’s great to be with you. Peter. Thank you very much.