The Bregman Leadership Podcast
Episode 223

Ryan Berman

Return on Courage

What makes a person step forward when another would step back? Ryan Berman is the founder of Courageous Brands and author of Return on Courage. Discover his definition of courage, why your inner lieutenant shouldn’t be calling the shots, and why courage isn’t a cherry on top – it’s a journey word.

About

Get the book, Return on Courage from Amazon here:

Learn more

Bio: Ryan Berman is the founder of Courageous: a consultancy that develops Courage Brands® and trains organizations through Courage Boot Camp. Berman has spent a career developing meaningful stories for household brands such as Caesars Entertainment, Major League Baseball, New Era, PUMA, Subway, US Ski & Snowboard and UNICEF. Berman believes that courage is any business, being or brands ultimate competitive advantage. Return on Courage addresses this head on. He used the methodology unveiled in the book to launch his own two Courage Brands: Sock Problems: a charitable sock company that “socks” problems in the world, and Robin Hood Brands: Factory-to-Consumer brands sold only on Amazon.

Video

https://youtu.be/fTkcVDNcKqM

Transcript

This transcript is unedited.

Peter:

Today is Ryan Berman. He is the founder of courageous, which is a creative consultancy that develops courage brands. And he also trains organizations through the courage boot camp. And he’s written most recently return on courage, return on courage, a business playbook for courageous change. And, and anyone who listens to this show regularly knows my passion for courage and, and my exploration of emotional courage. So it’s a real pleasure to have Ryan on the show, Ryan, welcome to the Bregman leadership podcast.

Ryan:

Thanks for having me. Isn’t it cool that we could be 3000 miles apart from each other and like this word that has both of us it’s connected us.

Peter:

Yeah, it’s very, very cool. And we’ve sort of traded emails in the past, but, but this is the first time we’re meeting, which is a lot of fun. So let’s just define courage from your perspective to get started on a playing field. What’s what’s courage.

Ryan:

Yeah. This is the rabbit hole question for me because honestly I wasn’t setting out to write a book. I had, you know, I ran a creative marketing company and had landed on this concept of courage brands and I’m like, I love what it sounds like. I don’t really know what it means and how could I possibly come up with a definition of a courage brand if you don’t go back to the root and start to study courage. So you know, I looked at the dictionary definition and I really wasn’t satisfied with what I saw

Peter:

By the way. Let me, let me back you up for a second. What, what attracted you like, like an artist that sort of attracted to an image? What attracted you to courage brands? Like without even having a clear definition of courage for yourself?

Ryan:

Yeah. I think if I really look back at the ideation business, there’s thousands and thousands of ideas and most of them breakthrough and, you know, I’m a firm firm believer that courageous ideas are the only ones that matter. Right. Everything else is noise and we’re, we’re inundated with it, I think a thousand messages a day. So how do you actually cut through, I think it’s the courageous idea that does it so greatly when I landed on the courage brands, it was like, okay, I’m going to buy the URL. I’m going to, I’m going to trademark this thing, but what is it, what does it mean? And as I started to go down this path, looking at the dictionary definition, which is the ability to do something that frightens you, I’m like, who wants to do that? Like please step forward, I’m taking a step back.

Ryan:

So from that moment on, I was like, I wonder if I could come up with a definition that could help people in real time when they actually needed courage. And as I started to interview people that I thought were courageous at first glance, like Navy seals and army infantry, men and tornado chasers and astronauts. And then I went to like Bullis business leaders, people at Apple, Google, Amazon J cone Gilbert who used to, he started [inaudible] and then he started to be corporation. And he said to me, you know what? It’s like, it’s so interesting because courage is this to me, it’s a peripheral thing if you’re not thinking about it. But if you put the business on timeout and really think about it, it is central to everything we do. It’s essential. So I was like, okay, so leaders don’t think they need this thing that I know they need. How can I help them see they need this and then give them a tool to recognize it. So coming out the other end, it was like a six month sort of spar on the word. And my definition is knowledge plus faith plus action equals courage. And it has to be all three of these levers.

Peter:

So that’s, those are levers to courage. I’m still curious about the definition of courage. So what do those things produce? So knowledge, what did you say? Knowledge plus action plus knowledge plus faith plus faith plus action. Right? You write about this in book. So, so I read that and I thought, okay, knowledge plus faith plus action equals replace courage with something else. Tell me what it equals.

Ryan:

It equals calculated action, even though all the information isn’t there to do it.

Peter:

Okay. So calculated action without enough information. That’s correct. Would that all the information without all the information?

Ryan:

Yeah. Cause there’s enough information

Peter:

Related action without all the information is courage.

Ryan:

So if I’m going to, I’m going to push for it. If I’m going to push forward this quest for relevance, which is really what a lot of this is and reinventing whatever, wherever we were, because what I learned to, like, it’s not the invention part. That’s hard for people. It’s the reinvention, it’s the next wave. Right. And that’s the scary part. That’s the scary part. So how do I know enough? Think it’s the right move feel. It’s the right move. And then what am I going to do about it? Right. I love this is another way to say Kurt. Right.

Peter:

And those are, those are the building blocks of courage, but really what courage is, is taking calculated action without all the information.

Ryan:

Yes. Right? Correct. That’s going to be, we’ll write that book together.

Peter:

Right. I like that. I think that’s really, really important. Okay. So here’s a question that I’m curious about because it was coming up for me as I was reading the book. Also you interview a ton of people for this. You spent a thousand days, three years, you know, off doing interviews and, and almost all the interviews that I’m remembering, at least as I was reading, it are people who’ve had tremendous courage and also tremendous success. I’m curious about the people, you, if any, who had tremendous courage and terrible failures and ended up as no one we know because, you know, because that’s, that’s another side of courage, like it’s a calculated risk without all the information might end up a failure.

Ryan:

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s funny. I think this is like a little self fulfilling prophecy, right? Because you’re like, who do I want to interview? So you design a, you design a construct of the brands you think, you know, that you want to talk to, you’re not going, who do I want to interview that failed? So there’s, there’s little, there’s little moments. Like if you’re paying attention in the, in the Nestles of the book, like Kodak and blockbuster moments, right. That maybe it wasn’t, it wasn’t correct, but it was a failure for courage.

Peter:

It was the failure of courage. I’m curious about people who had courage, but it didn’t pan out because this is my big challenge with courage. And I think about this really very personally in my own life, which is in order to have courage, you’re taking a risk. You can talk about you, you, you sort of say your myth. Number three is courage is a risky solo journey. And that’s a, that’s, that’s a myth, but you’re really focusing on the solo piece. And, but there is, you don’t need courage if there’s no risk. And if there’s risk, it means you may fail. You may make a poor decision. And, and I’m curious, and the answer might be, you know, like w I kind of focused on the people who succeeded, so we may not have the center. And this might be another book to write, although I don’t know who wants to read it, but, but it’s, but I’m curious about, I’m curious about the people, because I, to me, the hardest thing about being courageous is the risk of failure.

Ryan:

Yeah. So, so let me let me try to do a service on both of this. So one no, like, I don’t think there were brands I interviewed that were not courageous, or there were brands I wanted to interview that I thought were courageous and they shut down the interview. So in the epilogue, I’m now jumping to the back of the book. I kind of described it as there was the willingness senders and the cautionary descenders. So the willingness under like, let me into their lives. And I think like, I didn’t, if you didn’t know this, I didn’t pay anybody to be in the book. None of them were clients. They, it was, there were some, they resonated with the word, which is pretty cool. Could you just never know when you get, and I just grabbed the book more like a documentary. So I thought, just follow the path and see where it takes me.

Ryan:

But there were so many times that I had set up an interview with somebody and they were thought they were going to go through with it and then legal or PR shut it down. Now I’ve never written a book who am I, you know, I’m just first time author, but yet still the fact that they wrote, they shut the book down kind of as a data point that maybe there were failures from courage, or like, you’re afraid of what I’m going to write about your brand right now. I don’t want to call it that nothing good comes from calling them out in might’ve been here. Right. But I, I do think that’s a data point. And I think the bigger question is why, why are we afraid of current? Right. So if you could just shift a little bit in your head and how do you take a, it’s a failure to, it’s an experiment where we’re going to learn something off this experiment and you create process and you put a little budget towards it.

Ryan:

You have to put your whole budget towards it. No one said risk the house on it. But one of my favorite interviews was with a guy named Jason Sparrow from Google. They take 5% of their budget and he provides air cover for his team. And he knows it may not work out, but it may, they’re actually putting spices and money. And he’s like make, come back with a recommendation in six months where I can move 20% of my budget to this. Right. That’s pretty cool. That’s like permission to fail permission to experiment and let’s go from there.

Peter:

Right. Yeah. And I think that’s, I think, you know, as I was reading too, and thinking about what you were writing and thinking about my own experience, I think as long as your courageous bats are not fatal, then courage, like all of those things. So knowledge plus faith plus action plus persistence.

Ryan:

Yeah. Resilience, yeah.

Peter:

Ends up leading to successful courage. Like if you’re, if you’re, if you add the resilience piece in there or the persistence piece in there, then it’s like, yeah, I’m going to be courageous, but what will make it a successful courageous act is that that may fail, but it’s not going to stop.

Ryan:

I, I completely agree. And I, and I gotta tell you, I give the reader credit more credit maybe than I should, to be honest, because I’m assuming if you’ve picked up a book about courage or you’re 11 minutes and listening to our podcast today, that you’re curious about courage, and I’ll tell you one thing that I don’t share often. So there was another title. There was like, we were down to the final two titles, the book, and the other title was willing, courage brands. I love the word willing. Yeah. We will encourage brands. And I love, I love the word willing because it means, you know, I’m willing, I’m open to listening to someone else’s perspective as a leader, I’m open to hearing what someone else has to say. And then assuming we agree I’m going to will something through that’s the resilience piece, that’s your perfectly perfectly stated. And I think I thought it was too narrow. It was too much of a marketing book will encourage brands. I still love the term, but just felt return on courage was a better wider title.

Peter:

Right? So I want to share with you my, one of my biggest takeaways from the book and, and, and I want to talk about it because I think it brings so many different dimensions of the book together. And, and of my main takeaways is what makes a brand courageous. And by the way, I might be wrong in the sticker way. So don’t hesitate to correct me. What makes a brand, what makes a brand courageous is when they make a niche focused choice, you sort of talk about commitment to purpose or commit to purpose. And it’s like, you know, in my book leading with emotional cards, that’s one of my four elements, but, but it’s, it’s making this narrow choice and decision about what to invest in what to commit to a hundred percent what to, what to stand behind without apology, that that makes a band courageous. That makes a brand courageous. It’s also what makes a person courageous. And, and the flip side of that, and I see that in my own life is if I doubled down on this, I’m neglecting, or maybe even offending or turning off, or at least, you know, FOMO, all these other people who might otherwise be interested. And that to me is like the, the choice point, encourage that everything hinges on. And so I kind of wanted to just share that takeaway with you and get your perspective on it, and then talk about it a bit.

Ryan:

Yeah. I think a narrow narrow might be too narrow, but outside of that, be having, having, being unapologetic with your clarity and going out a direction and not being afraid to be that company. And then in some ways I’ve described myself now as a business mechanic, let’s get the business back in alignment. Like once, you know, once you have clarity as to who you are, design the company around that, and you’re right, you’re going to lose people. You’re going to, you may lose customers. You may lose employees, take a deep breath though. And if it’s the right move, that’s going to actually build conviction for the brand and or for yourself. Cause I think it’s, in some ways I’ve written a self help business book, right. Then that’s okay. Like that’s B, B that company, cause that’s, what’s gonna make you differentiated. And your point of view is gonna come out, all the things you do.

Peter:

So how do you help people around that choice point?

Ryan:

Yeah, I think it starts by going all the way back to the basics and really looking at the values of the company or the values of yourself. And it’s sort of this head like really this head-scratcher that we still haven’t cracked, how important values should be. You know, you see companies not make choices, right? They’ve got 16 values, 10 values. I’m just not that smart. I can remember four, you know, and if I’m the leader of the company and I can only remember four, imagine somebody just coming off an internship and they’re supposed to remember your values, good luck. Right. So are the values modern? Are they, are they, are they really mirroring what you want out of the behavior of your brand, out of your customers and of your employees and, and really like asking yourself, like some companies they, that are legacy businesses. They keep, they keep the values of the founders, like cord not alive anymore. There are 50 year old values. And I feel like you think you’re honoring the founders. If, if you really want to honor the founders make, keep the company relevant and change the values. Right. But we don’t do that.

Peter:

And there’s no value judgment from a courage standpoint on which values you’re following. Like I could think of two, I could think of Trump and Obama. I don’t want to get political here. And I’m not, I’m not getting to a political this podcast, right? Yeah. I’m not getting, I’m not having a political conversation, but I just want to sort of talk about to people who everybody knows. Who’s listening to this podcast who were both in exactly the same role and elected president of United States and both of whom very, very clearly have different values that you would look at both of them and say they, and this is the question. It sounds like a statement, but it’s a question of, would you look at both of them and say you are, I might like one of you, I might not like the other one, whatever. I don’t know your politics, but you are equally courageous leaders based on the, based on how we’re defining courage and, you know, focus on values and that kind of thing.

Ryan:

I would say it’s a in the spirit of not getting political, I can’t answer that for others. But when I go through the lens of knowledge, faith, and action does, does our leader have the knowledge to lead? Do we believe in that? And then where are they taking action? So like, even now I’m seeing lots of action. I’m seeing some belief. I do question the knowledge side. And I think this goes back to one of the myths in the book, right? So there’s a big difference between a, what I would say is a careless move and a calculated one.

Peter:

So, so this is a beautiful distinction. So a courageous brand, it’s not all about action. That’s why you sort of have the knowledge and the faith in the action. So, so, so give us a line or two on each of knowledge, faith and action.

Ryan:

Yeah. So again, the knowledge side is, you know, and again, I think that the real question, the trouble conversation is, is the data conversation. How much data do you need to leap? And if you just sit there and think you’re going to get a hundred percent of the data you need, you’re probably going to get past, which is why the faith bucket is important. Right? And when we talk about faith, we’re not talking about religion, we’re talking about inner belief. We’re talking about intuition, we’re talking about your collective experience over time on how you assess that knowledge. That’s the faith piece. That’s the field piece. Even with our consultancy, we talk about a lot of consultants make you think we want to make you feel and do. And that’s the magic to bring a little bit of the magic to the table, right? And then, you know, how often have you known what was the right move to do? And you felt it was the right move and you just couldn’t pull the trigger for whatever reason. We’ve all been there and we’ve allowed status quo to continue. We’ve allowed, you know, we just couldn’t jump. And so to me, that’s really, the difference is, you know, are you making a careless move or a calculated move? That’s the knowledge piece? You know, do you believe it’s possible? You know, how do you build believers? That’s the faith piece. And then where are you leaping do or do not. There is no try this, the Yoda piece.

Peter:

That’s great. How do you help people? When you’re working with people, leaders who have knowledge and they have faith and they are willing to take action and they have fear, you have a wonderful line in the book where you say, perhaps business is more about finding fear than fighting fear, treat fear, like an object buried in the ground, dig it out and bring it to the surface. If you don’t think you have fear, dig deeper and identify a potential fear that could affect you in the future. That feels so important to me. I love that. I love that line or that, those few sentences. How do you help people when you uncover the facts?

Ryan:

Yeah. First of all, it’s, you know, think about if I’m a leader and I’m listening to this, I would ask yourself, which of the three stages are you in right now? Are you proactive about setting up your business for the future? Are you reactive to the realities of the business today? Or are you inactive? You just sort of going through the motions. And a lot of this is just being intentional and being, trying not to respond to everything. And as you know, cause you read the book, this thing called our central nervous system is, is really we have no remedy at this point to just, it sort of runs the roost and it’s the Lieutenant on the inside is doing exactly what it’s supposed to do. It’s designed to keep you safe, but you know, the Lieutenant really shouldn’t be calling the shots. So for starters, imagine that you’re two people.

Ryan:

I know everyone’s like really two people. And like, how do you break out that nervous little Lieutenant? That’s just calling out all the places where you’re, you’re fearful or you’re nervous bringing it up to the captain. Who’s COO knows that fear, recognize that fear and is like, I understand what you’re trying to do and yet need to do this for us. In fact, it’s almost a data point that you should do it. If that little voice is going off in your head, then it’s like, okay, we need to put a plan in place to attack this fear. That whole little semblance, that little, little thought about finding your fear and facing it. It really came from a conversation I had with a woman named Loretta Dago. She’s an astronaut at Virgin galactic. The universe is a really funny place that she was one of my first in-person interviews.

Ryan:

And and she’s like, yeah, like people in her business die, by the way, you don’t lose your job. And so fear is a real, a real problem for them. And the way that they try to go after it is to make it unemotional and recognize it as just a data point. And so, yeah. How do we make our fear tangible? How do we sort of separate our emotions from that fear and smoke it out? Bring it to the surface. I like to say font, not FOMO. Is that a fear of missing out fear of missing fear. So go find that fear, that biggest fear that you have, and then bring it to the team and address it head on.

Peter:

And what if you address it head on and, and it fits into that category of, we don’t have all the knowledge. We’re not going to have all the knowledge, right? Because you can’t have all the knowledge, but we sort of have enough to suggest we should move forward. And we don’t know.

Ryan:

Yeah, well maybe we should create a, we don’t know budget for all of our clients from here on forward. I think that’s part of it. I think, I think a lot of what we’re trying to do is to design systems, to experiment. It’s not going to happen if you don’t put process in place, right? So that’s like 5% of my budget. I’m calling my idle no budget. Right. And I don’t know what’s going to happen with the budget. Let’s assume this we’re going to waste this money. Just justify it that way for yourself. You’ll feel better about yourself. And then maybe put an, I don’t know, team, that’s a diverse team. I call it in the book and experimental taskforce, but whatever you need to do, and it doesn’t have to be all your leaders, maybe it’s future leaders, maybe it’s somebody right out of school.

Ryan:

That’s not jaded by all the Koolaid that happens sometimes inside our company. It’s a, it’s a checks and balances team that experiment on take that little bit of knowledge that you have in faith. And to start to explore and just report back on recommendations of that. I don’t know, six month experiment. And I think that’s what this is all about is it’s trying to design ways to think about what your future could look like. And that would start there. You know, it start there. And again, even with my company, when you’re called courageous, what you’re trying to do is sort of weed out those pointy percent that you should never be working with in the first place. It’s probably more, it’s probably 50%. I mean, we’re not called iterative. You know, don’t go to safe.com and expect to see anything from us. But when there’s a willing, that is that kind of knows that they need change.

Ryan:

And I think that’s really what the conversation of courage is all about. Where does change have to happen in the organization? And with courageous, there’s three missions. We go on, there’s a conviction mission, which really looks at culture and leadership there’s communication missions, which really look at the story and where I got lucky Peter, is that I came out of a, you know, my mentors were the New York city mad men guys. Like I learned how to tell stories in a quick 15, second, 30 seconds when commercials really mattered. The only difference now is that same story has to work inside the organization as it does to your customers. In fact, it’s like the wizard of Oz syndrome. Like don’t go behind the curtain. No, no, please come behind the curtain. And then the final mission is an innovation mission through reinvention and wherever change needs to happen, we’re building special forces teams and we’re bolting onto your team to help you deal with that change.

Peter:

You talking in the commit to purpose section and in general, or with about moving with cover, like the idea of moving with cover, right? Which is which as I understood it to be like, you’ve got, you’ve got a purpose and you’re going to really focus on it, but you’re going to try to do that without destroying what you already have. Like you’re going to keep what you have and take these risks. And I imagine when you work with companies, especially these days companies that succeed use their elastic purpose, right? I, this is, this is your line, right? Using a lasting purpose to create new products that keep them changing and relevant. As I read that, I thought sometimes that’s a risk because these days you sort of are in many situations, cannibalizing your current rent revenue, right? Because if you don’t do it, you know, someone else is going to do it.

Peter:

So you have to sort of disrupt yourself. So you know, it, as I was reading that, I was thinking, you know, some, and I just wanted to check your view. Sometimes you have to move without cover. Like, meaning you have to say, you know what, we don’t have all the information. We have enough information to know that we’re going to move in this direction. The risk we’re taking is not only might this be a failure, but we also might draw people away from something where we’re already making money and it’s already by successful. How do you help people in that? Because that’s a, a real moment of courage that I see. How do you help people in those moments?

Ryan:

Well, that first part that you mentioned about cannibalizing your own businesses, so hard for people to wrap their heads around because you just want to squeeze the sponge of every point you can get out of this idea and you’re, you know, at work. So you’re afraid to move to something else. So for like that said, like the, if, if not use somebody else, but why wouldn’t you cannibalize your own business? If I, if I was like, well, would you rather be, you are your biggest competitor. You make the call. Right. and then I do think it is, you know, when we talk about cover and move, which is, you know, again, it came out of research with the Navy seals, how they cover their teammates as a certain group, starts to move into the next to the next phase of a mission. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s tricky. It’s tricky to have, and it’s important when you have a purpose, that’s clear enough, then it takes a little bit of the risk out of it.

Peter:

So, so what you’re saying is, yeah, like, yeah, like these are the risks. Like there are risks and that you try to mitigate the risks as much as possible, but you’re going to exclude some people when you focus on a niche, you’re going to cannibalize some current things when you’re shifting, you know, you’re, you’re when you’re bringing in new products or new processes or new that you know, the reason we call it courage is because it requires some faith and some risk. And, and, and, and I’m going to keep throwing in my own little addition to this, which is the persistence piece, which you talk about a lot in terms of experimentation. You’ve talked about it on this conversation, you know, you’re, I don’t know budget as long as you keep moving. You know, it’s funny, I’ll let me share a personal story, which is I I’m, I’m, I’m for myself thinking about ways in which I want to shift my business and shift things.

Peter:

And I have felt this fear myself about like, well, my I’m already really successful. You know, I’ve done a lot, you know, until like, I don’t know that I want to leave that stuff and, and move here. And the other day I was mountain biking and I was mountain biking up, up a very steep mountain for a long period of time, like to get to the top where there was this really great mountain biking trail. And there were a couple places I had to walk. I mean, it was that hard. Like I had to kind of walk the bike up a couple of places, and then otherwise I was biking. It was about a 15 minute ride. And it suddenly hit me in the middle of that in the middle of that ride. I’m not afraid of hard work. Like I like working hard. Like I like having a challenge. So, so I, it was like an admission. It wasn’t like, let me solve my fear by creating more certainty. It was like, let me solve my fear by building confidence in my resilience. Like this may not work. And if it doesn’t, I’ll figure something else out because I’m not afraid of hard work like that, that comes to that resilience piece.

Ryan:

This is a little fluffy, probably it’s fluffy for most business people, but courage is a journey word. Yeah. That’s all it is like, courage is not a contrary to what movies or the media sometimes talk about it. It’s not a cherry on top thing. Right? Like you need, you need courage in the, in the middle, in order to hold firm on something, right. To get to ultimately something meaningful, the destination is like, is something meaningful. Right. So, so I love that you sort of, you like, it’s like being at peace with the journey of hard work. Right. And another way to say it, because I think again, courage can come off to some people is like this fluffy thing, and then that’s, that’s all good is what of, this is just an exercise in getting your mindset. Right. That’s all it really is. So, you know, the, the way, the way we really do we think about thinking through the future, right?

Ryan:

There’s a goal set. Let’s go set for 2021. Cause 2020 clearly is out the window at this point. So we’re going to goal set for 2021. So we do our goal set. And then what we start to do is we mirror that skillset, who do I need to achieve these goals, which I’m working on the skill set. And there’s not a lot of thought on the mindset. Do you have the team that has some people, some of your most talented people don’t want to work hard, right. And they’re also messing with your culture by the way, double bad. Right. And you keep them around because you think you need the talent. And I would rather have someone that has hard work and maybe a little less down, but has the mindset and is aligned with me right. Then somebody that’s talent, that’s messing with my culture. Right? So to me, the mind, the mindset to go the distance to go up a 15 minute Hill, because you got to do it

Peter:

Just to be clear, 50 minute Hill.

Ryan:

I was tired at five minutes. Five minutes from me. Was it, I think as part of this, and again, even with, with courage, you know, I think if you’re risk averse, this is in the front of the book, right? Unbeknownst to you, your, your courage averse, right? The risk mitigation I’m going out to here, the courage mitigation, these are just little tricks and tips for your mind. So you can do what you need to do. Right,

Peter:

Right. It’s great. And by the way, after writing the 50 minutes, then I set myself a challenge. And over the next couple of times, I reduced it to 40 minutes. So like, so I, but it’s, I think it’s, you know, like part of that is, Oh, okay. I liked this, I do this in my free time. So if I like this stuff, then I could probably handle a failure too, and get back up and that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s the journey piece, Ryan? I I’ve so enjoyed this conversation. Ryan Berman has been with us. His book is return on courage, a business playbook for courageous change. We focused a lot in this conversation on the ideas behind courage and what it means and how to deal with fear. What I want to say is the book truly is a playbook. It’s a, it’s a methodical process that helps you to integrate and implement and execute courage in, in a brand and in a business. So, you know, we didn’t focus on that so much because that’s the book, but, but the book was really sort of terrific and a concrete executionary kind of way. Ryan, thank you so much for being on the Bregman leadership podcast.

Ryan:

Thanks Peter. So nice to finally meet you. Yeah. We got to, when I come to New York, we’ll will assuming we were allowed to travel and do those whole things. We’ll coffee it up or something.

Peter:

I would love that.

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