Peter Bregman

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Are you afraid of taking a risk? You might just be afraid of feeling. If you are willing to feel everything, you can do anything—which is the premise of my new book, Leading With Emotional Courage. For this very special episode, my good friend Howie Jacobson takes the reins and interviews me about my new release. Discover the four elements of Emotional Courage, how we learn to limit ourselves (and how to break away from it), and why placing emphasis on success or failure won’t help you in the long run. Listen here.

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If you are willing to feel everything, you can do anything – how you can shape your world and Lead With Emotional Courage. #EmotionalCourage #podcast We aren’t afraid of taking the risk – we’re afraid of feeling. On this very special episode, my friend @askhowie and I discuss the four elements of Emotional Courage. #EmotionalCourage

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Transcript

Peter: Welcome to the Bregman Leadership podcast. I’m Peter Bregman, your host and CEO of Bregman Partners. This podcast is part of my mission to help you get massive traction on the things that matter most.

Today, we have a very different kind of podcast. Today I am the guest on the Bregman Leadership Podcast. I’m here with Howie Jacobson, my good friend and accomplished author, and professional in his own right, and he is going to be interviewing me about my most recent book that is out now called Leading With Emotional Courage. This is the galley that both he and I have. It’s the uncorrected proof because we’re recording this a few weeks before the book is actually available.

Leading with Emotional Courage, How to Have Hard C onversations, Create Accountability, and I nspire Action on Y our Most I mportant Work. This book encompasses big work that I’ve been playing with over the past decade, and it feels like my most important work. I’m really, really excited that we’re finally at the place where it’s getting into people’s hands, and I’m really excited to talk about it. Howie, thank you for having me on the Bregman Leadership Podcast.

Howie: Yeah, it’s a great honor to be your interlocutor today. I realize we’ve known each other for about two decades now, and I have witnessed first hand your ride towards this book, and I can see looking back 10 years ago conversations that I see in the book and 15 or even 20 years ago things you were interested in, I would love to be able to just tell everybody how much of you is embodied in this work, and how much courage and passion you’ve put into it, but I can’t. I would love for you to just share from your perspective what’s the origin of this book? Why this book and why now?

Peter: There’s a couple of answers to that question, and you’ve been a part of this also, which is why this particular conversation makes me excited, and I’m going to talk about that in a second. Probably close to 10 years ago now, I went to a week long workshop at Esalen with this woman named Ann Bradney, who became my teacher and is really remarkable in many ways, and the book is in part dedicated to her and Jessica Gelson, and it was Jessica who first said to me, “Hey, you got to meet this woman Ann Bradney.”

I went out and spent a week in this workshop, and I found myself in a situation that, and I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant, but that I’m rarely in, which is we were dealing with psychology, and communication, and relationships, and connections with ourselves, and with each other, and it was the Wild West. People were making these choices in how they communicated with each other that was on the verge of massive conflict, and yet it was exactly what needed to happen in the moment for the relationship or the conversation or work that we were doing to progress to the next level. I was in this workshop, and watching this happen and feeling clueless, and that’s a situation I’m not often in where this is my area of expertise, and I’m watching these people make these moves, these communication moves, and these moves connecting with each other, and with things that are important to them, and I felt like I didn’t know what was happening, but they were all the right moves.
In that moment, I knew I had something really important to learn here, and I started studying the work that really ended up being encapsulated in this book around emotional courage. I remember a conversation that you and I had Howie where we were talking about the challenge of following through on something, or the fear that was preventing us from following through on something, and you had mentioned to me that someone had said to you once that what we fear is not really the thing. We fear feeling what we would have to feel if we do the thing. I don’t fear taking a risk. I fear what I might have to feel if I took the risk, and maybe fail. Then I’d have to feel failure.

That is really at the root of this book. Like any book or anything that I create, it’s made up of a million of moments, and conversations, and tidbits that you pick up from here and there, but it really started in that workshop, and it’s been continuing for 10 years.

Howie: Okay. You could have gone to a jazz improv workshop and had the same experience of people doing this wild moves of communication and conflict, and you might have said, “That was really cool, but it doesn’t really affect my work.” What was it about that experience that made you feel like, “I’ve got to dig into this if I want to be my most effective self as Peter Bregman.”

Peter: Because it felt really personal, meaning I was in that room, and I was making choices that weren’t necessarily in my best interests or in the best interest of the people around me, but they were the moves I knew, and I realized that I was afraid or not fully moving into what was needed in that moment, and I was really interested in what stops me. Every book I write, I write about something that I struggle with in one form or another. I feel like it’s worth spending years or decades exploring something when it really grabs me and interests me, and that’s usually when I hit some wall that I’m not getting past. I want to understand that better because ultimately I want to continue to grow, and to learn, and to expand what I’m capable of.

Peter: That was one of those moments. In that room, I felt the ways in which I was limiting myself, and I felt like there was so much opportunity in getting past that, and I really wanted to learn how.

Howie: Okay. You see a pathway for personal development, and you took it to a whole other level in terms of really informing the way you work with clients, the way you train associates and coaches. What’s the hole in the way that we do things that this fills?

Peter: Let’s talk about the context of the book, and that’ll answer that question. I’ve spent 30 years of my life focused on leadership, and focused on what helps us to be more effective leaders, what helps people work effectively together in terms of achieving an aligned objective, something that they all care deeply about and make happen. I’ve brought it down to – and this is what I talk about in leading with emotional courage – four elements of leadership.

When I say lead, it could really just be how I step into the world, it could be how we all work together to achieve something big. I use the word leadership broadly, and I also like the double entendre of it, which is that I could lead as a leader using emotional courage, or I could lead with – start with – emotional courage. The book is really meant to support people in doing one or the other or both.

It’s broken up into four elements of leadership. I need to be confident in myself, connected to others, committed to a larger purpose, and I have to have emotional courage in order to take the risks to do those other three things.

When I say confident in self, I don’t mean this false confidence that reads as arrogance and is actually born of insecurity. I mean a confidence that is a comfort with yourself that does not require you to be better than anybody else because you’re not insecure. You don’t need to improve yourself, but you have a deep groundedness, and a connection. You know what you’re feeling. You know how you’re feeling. You know that you believe in yourself. You’re willing to take risks because you know you will survive perfectly well whether or not you succeed or fail at that risk. That’s a true confidence in yourself, and in order to move in the world we need that confidence in ourselves.

We also need connection with others. I just wrote a book – Arguably you could say that sitting with my laptop, writing my book, I don’t need anyone else. But that couldn’t be farther from the truth. In order to create anything in the world, we’re really doing it in concert with other people, and especially if you’re leading teams, which is where I often live because I play in this world of leadership and organizations, I see where people get in their own way. You really be connected to others where you’re trusting them, and you’re trusted by them. That’s a skill. It’s very important.

Howie: Let’s go back for a moment – The idea of being confident in yourself as not having to be fantastic or superior or to get it right 100% of the time, to me that plays into emotional courage in that you have to be willing to have failures in order to realize those failures aren’t the worst thing in the world. When I was trying to learn how to ride a unicycle, I was terrible. I was terrified of falling, and it was only by going to grass and actually practicing falling that I developed the ability to ride the unicycle because falling was a part of it. For developing your own self confidence, it’s not that you think you’re going to succeed all the time, but that you’re going to be okay no matter what.

Peter: You actually realize at a certain point – and this is sort of a mythical nirvana enlightened experience – you get to a certain point where you realize that it’s not about success or failure. It’s about fully engaging and throwing yourself into things, and some things will succeed, and some things won’t, and they’re all informative, and we all talk about that. There’s so much in sports, in art, in everything. I just went to a baseball game with my 10 year old son, and I was looking at the batting averages with him, and trying to explain the best baseball players fail 70% of the time to hit the ball, if I’m understanding batting averages right.

And that’s part of the game. But you realize that it’s stepping up to bat that makes the biggest difference, and this is true in so many areas. But if we lose ourselves with every failure, and if we fall in love with ourselves at every success, then we’ve lost ourselves. It’s not about trying to get more successes, and trying to stay away from failures although we end up doing that. We end up charging our ways towards trying to aggregate as many possible successes, and shying away from failures, which means we just limit what we’re willing to do.

It’s really thinking like a scientist: Every time you fail, you’ve learned something. And every time you succeed, you’ve learned something, and it’s all the same. It’s really painting on the same canvas. It’s very hard to even explain. I’m listening to myself speak about it and it’s hard to explain, but the way leading with emotional courage works, the way this book works is it’s lots of short chapters where there’s exercises in every single one. It’s about following a process and building your muscle, so that you show up whether you succeed or fail that you throw everything you’ve got into it, and you learn whatever you’re going to learn from it. But failures or successes don’t throw you.

People could get thrown by successes just as much as they can get thrown by failures, and the goal is for all of that to be ancillary to what we’re really doing, which his showing up and bringing our all.

Howie: Great. Do you have an example maybe of an exercise in the part about confidence in yourself that you think might be helpful for people?

Peter: Yeah. I think there’s a couple of different things. Some of it is about trusting that you’re going to be okay one way or the other. An early stage where it may not even be you failing, but you might experience disappointment, and being able to live with that in the same way that you experience excitement. Here’s a fun thing to do. Here’s a fun exercise to do:

Go to a restaurant, and since I know that you are plant based, that you would probably give some instruction like, “I don’t eat meat.” But go to a restaurant, and look at the menu, and if you have particular instructions you have to give the waiter like, “I don’t eat meat,” or, “I’m Kosher,” whatever it is that you want to give, you can give those instructions. Then say, “Just go ahead and order me an entrée, and an appetizer.” Or if you’re with friends, “Go ahead and order me three entrees. Whatever you want to bring me, just bring me.”
People are very caught up with what they eat, and they want just what they want, and you’re paying money, and you might get something that you don’t want, and you might be disappointed or you might be surprised. But it’s out of your hands, and you realize how much of life is actually out of your hands. You could order exactly what you want and have it not taste the way you want it to, and you’re going to be disappointed.

When you say to the waiter, “Go ahead and bring me whatever you feel like bringing me,” you will feel some anxiety. You’ll feel some stress, you’ll feel some excitement, you’ll feel all sorts of things, and breathe, and don’t lose yourself in it. Then notice, “Oh this is what disappointment feels like. This is what excitement feels like. This is what surprise, pleasure feels like. This is what anxiety feels like.” Whatever. Just feel everything, and feel your feet on the ground, and feel your breath the whole time. All of these emotions are going to be flying through you over the silliest little thing.

A meal in the restaurant, and $25 or whatever it is going to end up costing you. But you’ll feel all of those things and you’ll realize you can find yourself in the midst of it. That’s just one little way, one little thing that can help you begin to get that feeling of grounding yourself in the face of anything.

Howie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The idea is if you can’t do that, good luck doing it in a performance review or a strategy offsite or a talk you have to give.

Peter: Exactly. Then once you have done it there you realize it’s actually not that different than a performance review or a talk that you’re going to give. There’s different consequences, but even the consequences are not that different because it’s all about how we end up feeling in the end. All of life is about how we end up feeling in the end.

Howie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. The second one is about connecting with other people, and you have some examples in the book of people who are very good at one or the other. At connecting with themselves, but they’re disconnected from others or they’re incredibly connected with others, and I’m guessing a lot of the people who follow you are coaching/HR/care takers. I see myself in that, that I could lose myself while taking care of others. How does emotional courage help you balance those two?

Peter: Yeah. It’s a great point you’re making and it goes with commitment to purpose. One of the points that I think is really important is that each of these elements are insufficient alone meaning in order to be an effective leader, in order to lead yourself effectively – you need to be confident in yourself, connected to others, and committed to purpose simultaneously. And you will recognize this. You were talking about care takers, and by the way it’s not just HR or coaching professionals, it’s leaders who can be so care taking that they give up themselves in the service of other people. It might be in the service of their board or their boss. Or it might be in the service of their employees. Or it might be in service of their clients.

But it’s giving yourself up in order to meet the needs of others, and that’s a recipe for burnout, and it’s a recipe for frustration. The opposite is also true, which could be it’s all about you, and you’re not factoring anyone else in, and then you end up alone and feeling betrayed because: where has everybody gone?, and why aren’t they supporting me?, when really you have failed to effectively connect with them.

I also know a lot of leaders who are so committed to purpose. They care so much about the ultimate outcome that they’re trying to achieve that they give themselves up, and their teams up, and everybody else, in pursuit of it. Then everybody leaves feeling frustrated, and disengaged, and disempowered.

You really need all three of those simultaneously. One of the things that you see with people when they’re connected to others, which is your question – connected to other people and giving up themselves – is they end up really giving themselves away, saying yes too much, trying to please the people around them, and make everybody else happy, but finding that they’re depleted at the end of the day because they’ve actually done nothing to make themselves happy.

Howie: Gotcha. All right. We’ve got the first three Cs, and your thesis is that all three of those require emotional courage to fulfill. Can you talk about how that works?

Peter: Yes. Emotional courage. I don’t know if we’ve defined emotional courage yet, but emotional courage is the willingness to feel everything. I say this in the book, and I say it a lot. If you are willing to feel everything, you can do anything. If I’m willing to feel shame or embarrassment or disappointment. If I’m willing to feel joy and excitement, if I’m willing to feel failure, if I’m willing to feel all of that then nothing stops me from acting in the world.
If confidence in self, connection to others, and commitment to purpose allows us to be really successful and powerful in the world, emotional courage allows us to be confident in ourselves and connect with others, and commit to purpose.

If you think about it, it’s a huge risk to be confident in myself. To trust myself to do something means that I’m going to take some risks, and I may end up being disappointed in myself. That’s the worst kind of disappointment, and it’s why so many people end up being smaller than they need to be because they’re afraid of disappointing themselves. They’re afraid of reaching too high and not achieving what it is that they want to achieve.

They end up limiting themselves. Trusting yourself takes emotional courage. You have to be willing to feel that momentary disappointment in order to flex your muscles and grow. Same thing with connection to others. It’s often a huge risk for people to connect with other people. To actually go to somebody and say, “I like you. I appreciate you.” To go to someone and say, “Hey look, I’m really committed to making this work, but I’m having a very hard time with the way you’re acting with me, and I’m acting with you, and I want to work on it.” The ways in which we connect with others is very scary. It takes an amazing amount of emotional courage because I might be inviting passive aggressive return.

I might say, “I think we have an issue that I really want to resolve,” and you can look back at me, and say, “We don’t have an issue. I don’t have an issue. It’s your problem.” Then I’ll sit there, and I’ll feel awkward, and dumb, and I’ll feel like that’s not true, but I don’t really know what to do with it next. Then I’ll go off and gossip, and I’ll talk about you behind your back, and none of that is productive, and none of it is helpful. We need tremendous emotional courage to show up in a way that makes ourselves available to connect with others even if they don’t connect back with us. That’s huge.

But if we are so worried that someone might not connect back with us, then we’ll never reach out and connect with them, and that is a recipe for loneliness. It’s also a recipe for falling short of what you can accomplish when you bring a group of people together, and you want to all work together towards a common purpose, which is the commitment to purpose. It’s the larger one, which is that we need to work together in alignment. I see this all the time in organizations where everyone is working – They’re individually productive, and they’re working on all sorts of different things, but collectively they’re not moving forward.

There’s a real art to collectively getting a group of people all moving – inspiring a group of people to move – towards what’s most important. There’s an art to that. And I can lose myself in that, I can lose others in that or I can have the emotional courage, the willingness to feel what it feels like. To stand for something important. To connect with you, and listen to you, and bring you on board, and to stay connected to myself as I do it all – all at the same time – and all of that takes emotional courage. When we do that we are unstoppable.

Howie: I realize part of me is thinking about emotional courage as a binary. You either have it or you don’t, and I think what the book really does is it shows you this is like your gym manual for working out, and getting your emotional courage muscles stronger. If someone is feeling like, “I could never feel that,” there’s always a place to begin to start expanding what you are able to feel even if you’re not going to go to defcon 7 on day one.

Peter: We learn to limit ourselves. We aren’t born limited. We’re actually born with a natural curiosity, and a willingness to take risk, but we don’t even really know it’s risk because we haven’t had our hands slapped yet. Then when we start to get this social and cultural direction, and parental and care-taking direction, that says, “Don’t do that. Do do this.” Then, at some point, we violate that direction, and our parents slam down on us. That’s a huge rejection – it’s life threatening – our lives depended on our care-takers and their love – so suddenly we learn, “Oh my god. I better stay in this box. It makes everybody else happy.”
Our full power comes when we can break out of that, and our full power as leaders comes when we’re able to help other people break out of that, and we’re all collectively able to break out of that together. It’s almost a learned behavior to stop feeling, and we have to relearn feeling. We have to be re-willing to feel things, and recognize that feeling the wrath of someone when we were 2 might actually have been life threatening, but it is no longer life threatening. Then having those small experiences that reinforce that idea: “Wow. The waiter wasn’t so happy with me, but I’m not actually codependent on my waiter, so I’m actually okay.” It might go from the waiter, to my friend to my boss, to the board, to whomever. But I can withstand that and not detach myself from them but also not detach myself from what I feel.

When we detach ourselves from feeling, the problems still exist. We’re repressing it and it ends up leaking out in insidious ways, which is the working definition of passive aggressive behavior. If we really want to be powerful in our leadership, then yes, we have to build our emotional courage and it’s not binary at all. We had it when we were born, and it’s about relearning it, and re-finding it, and taking little steps, where each one that builds on the next, so that eventually we can take those big risks. Whatever happens with them, it doesn’t knock us down.

Howie: Do you have a story or an example from the book or from your work of someone who went from not having emotional courage or not having sufficient emotional courage to then developing it, and what the difference was? Maybe an outcome?

Peter: Yes. We experimented with all of these ideas over a few years running a leadership intensive program. A program that I ran, that was really focused on building people’s emotional courage, and partly we did it because we wanted to measure what kinds of results you get from de eloping emotional courage. When you build your emotional courage, does it make a difference in your leadership? The answer is unequivocally yes. On any marker that we asked about in terms of how other people viewed their leadership in terms of their ability to accomplish things, in terms of things like promotions – it made a difference. It improves your capacity to act powerfully and successfully in the world.

There’s this one particular person who was at the leadership intensive, and literally … I don’t even know that I tell this story in the book, but literally half way through he was physically nauseous. He was being asked to do scary things that were not particularly scary to other people – That’s the thing about how you feel, and the fear of what you might be feeling: It’s incredibly personal. What scares you is not going to be the same thing as what scares someone else, and it’s why you hear that “people” fear public speaking more than death. But I like it. It’s not something that I fear.

Different people fear different things, but he was wickedly afraid of showing up in a touchy-feely way. Expressing his emotions was something he was detached from and very scared about. This was over the course of four days. It wasn’t forever, but he really grew tremendously in his ability to the point where he was able to stand up on stage, which is what we did in the group, and begin to express some vulnerability describing some of the ways he was feeling, which two days beforehand would have been unthinkable.
Then the question for him was: how does everybody feel about him when he expresses this? He was afraid it would represent weakness, and they wouldn’t like him anymore. He would become unlikable.

But here’s the thing. When you are open and in touch with your feelings and you’re able to express that vulnerability – That is when you are most likable. That is when people are most attracted to you because you need to be incredibly strong to express weakness without losing yourself. And the people who can’t express weakness are not strong, they’re not strong enough to be able to expose something that they’re not great at without losing themselves, so they don’t expose it. His ability to eventually do that in front of a lot of people drew everybody to him, and it was really, really a beautiful example.

Howie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. It makes you trustworthy.

Peter: Exactly.

Howie: Right. Okay, so now I know what you’ve been hiding.

Peter: Right.

Howie: And probably the same thing I’ve been hiding, and now maybe as a leader especially we’ve seen the effect of if a person in a position of authority, whether it’s line based on an org chart or just by virtue of their knowledge or expertise or resources, when someone does that it can create concentric ripples throughout the whole organization.

Peter: Absolutely. The point of trustworthiness is a great point because everybody -The thing that you’re most afraid of exposing – everybody already knows. Everybody already sees it, they know about it, they’re almost always talking about it, but just not with you because it’s not so safe to talk about it with you because they know that you can’t really handle it. When you can really handle it, nothing becomes off limits. But you’re not exposing something that no one else knows. You’re allowing everybody to breathe a sigh of relief to say, “It’s on the table, and now I can trust this person because we don’t have to go behind their back to say anything because we know they can handle it.”

Howie: Great. One final question, which is it looks like you constructed the book not just to be a bunch of interesting stories or inspiration, but to really be a field manual or for people to actually change. “I’m going to mail myself to you as a coach through this book.” Can you talk a little about the structural you made in crafting the work?

Peter: I love that you’re asking that because it’s really important to me. I want this book to be entertaining, and interesting, and engaging for people, and I’ve been hearing that it is. The early readers who we’ve given it to. And it’s really important to me that one can leave this book stronger. Having grown. It’s really laddered. The first thing is it starts with some conversation upfront as to why this is important, and the proof that we have that it actually makes a difference, and then there’s an assessment. The assessment you can also take on our website, and the assessment is at the beginning of the book.

The assessment asks a series of questions that helps you figure out, “Where are my strengths and weaknesses in terms of confidence in self, connections to others, commitment to purpose, and emotional courage?” Each question relates to a chapter in a book. At the beginning of the book you can take the assessment, and answer “Yes” if you feel strong in this area. “No” if you feel weak in this area or you want to get stronger. Anything you say no to, you can go right to that chapter. And every chapter has stories to it, but also has instruction and guidance to it.

Hopefully it’s very interesting to read, but it also lets you take a step wise approach to growing this muscle. You could go anywhere in the book if you want to, but I would suggest you start with confidence in self and build your way through it, and you can only focus on the chapters that you think you need or you can read them all. It’s about building through step by step a process. It’s a very specific process, so that you emerge from the end having gained that confidence in self, connection to others, commitment to purpose, and emotional courage. The way that the book is structured is not just so that you’re learning the skills in a vacuum, while you’re doing it you’re building what you need to build with your team, with the people that you really need to build it.

Connection to others isn’t abstract. It’s connecting to the people you care about most or it’s connecting to your team or your employees or your bosses or whomever it is you have to influence even without authority. It’s actually doing this work, collecting feedback from people, doing the work that not only teaches you, but builds the container around you that allows you to then have already achieved what you had set out to achieve if you were just learning this stuff in a room.

Howie: Right. I would guess that somebody could wave the book around a little bit and say, “This is my excuse. This is why I’m doing this hard thing.” I’ve gotten assignments from a book – it can give you a way to have these hard conversations where someone else is giving you permission or forcing you to.

Peter: One of the things that we’ve talked about is having your whole team read the book or the organization read the book because it’s very clear that I’m trying to impact individuals, and it’s also very clear that I’m trying to impact organizations. I believe so deeply that if we all collectively show up with emotional courage, the willingness to connect with each other, and be confident, and commit to something bigger than all of us, then our organizations will be stellar. I care a lot about individuals, and I care a lot about what we’re trying to achieve in organizations. I believe in organizations.

If this book, if everybody is reading it, I want the people around me to read this book. One of the reasons I wrote Leading with Emotional Courage is because I want to live in a world in which people live like this, in which people are direct with me and caring at the same time. That’s the world that I want to live in. I want everybody I come in contact with reading this book, and I want everyone I work with to read the book, and I want the organizations to read the book. I know this will sound to some people like I’m doing a hard sell on saying, “Everybody buy my book.”

But I really believe that … It’s like a fax machine. If one person has a fax machine it’s much harder to use it. If two people, you could use it. But if everybody is using this language, it starts a movement. I want to start a movement where people are willing to feel what they need to feel, to do what’s important to them. It’s important together to collectively move forward in something. I want to live in that world. I want teams to read this book. I want organizations to read this book. I want us to show up in this way.

Howie: And knowing you, I’m guessing saying that just now that you want everybody to read this book takes emotional courage.

Peter: Yeah. You’re right. That’s absolutely true. And I’m learning to say that because people are telling me, “If that’s what you want, you have to say it.” You can’t just shy away from saying it because you’re worried that you’ll come off as salesy, which is of course what I worry about. You know me well enough to know that. It’s really true. But I really want it. I really want it. There you go. I’m sweating a little bit. If you’re watching this on video, you can see that. But that’s the truth.

Howie: Is there any questions that the host of the Bregman Leadership Podcast would like to ask today’s guest?

Peter: No, this is great. It was super, super fun. I really appreciate being on the Bregman Leadership Podcast. Thank you for doing the interview Howie, and thank you to everybody for listening.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Bregman Leadership Podcast. If you did it would really help us if you subscribed on iTunes and leave a review. A common problem that I see in companies is a lot of busyness. A lot of hard work that fails to move the organization as a whole forward. That’s the problem that we solve with our big arrow process. For more information about that or to access all of my articles, videos, and podcasts visit PeterBregman.com.

Thank you Clare Marshall for producing this episode, and thank you for listening.